. It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. (Cue Calvinists crowing in predestined triumph) If the Institutes were a lifes work, Id expect a little length. You may be sad that we all dont get what you get about Calvinism (and Im sad that you dont see it my way lol), but we dont need to dwell there. I really did exercise power when I tossed that piece of chalk; God did not throw it for me. @ dee: Hey, my Lutheran background is a lot of things, but Calvinist it aint! Yes, Nouthetic Counseling and a lot of teachers have given this impression, but they are wrong. I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. I am a Christian. 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. He once called Wesley an inconsistent Calvinist. For some time now, my blog posts have pursued an inquiry of how non-Calvinists and Calvinists among Southern Baptists have come to be involved in a public conversation on their respective positions. (Keep in mind Sproul Jr.s insistence that God always acts according to his strongest desire.). And, for that matter, why is his style so difficult? Never once, have I ever thought that these folks were not saved. The Bible says they are. I do hope when I sad that comment, I said illogical TO ME, as in general I hesitate to call other people views illogical. Here is a link to a chart comparing Calvinism to Arminianism. I looked them up just long enough to figure out that Christus Victor is not necessarily the same as the ransom theory (I do kinda wish I knew more about this, since it gets lobbed at C. S. Lewis a lot because of LWW). 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. Man is completely helpless in his sinful state, is under the . Glad to have someone who gets my background! Cheers you on. I dont think so, but Im pretty sure Spock was a Calvinist. Arminianism answers some of questions for me, not all of them. Its like taking someone whos been caged and respecting that they might not feel comfortable in small rooms, or inside buildings at all. @ dee: Which also prove that God does not fit into our nice, neat packages. The need to defend comes when a closely held belief is blamed for atrocities. I am not saying that you or anyone else *shouldnt* feel that way that would be absurd. J. Vernon McGee 19. I had found the light. On the other thread, I commented about the issue of sovereignty and the misunderstanding a lot of people have about the concept of sovereignty. My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. Before you do, let me ask: would you take the same tone with another man, and do you believe your words honor God? In what way it is wrong needs to be determined. CALVIN!, The Bible? . list of non calvinist theologians. I can see why many walk away . Have you forgotten his evangelism tours where there were great multitudes of rebaptisms? But, as Ilook back, I am gratified bythe number of friends who have stayed the course through the years. So, when some folksfinally get into a Calvinist church that teaches sound doctrine, they believe that they have found a system that has answers for many questions that had troubled them. I get called an Arminian routinelyLOL, I dont even know anything about Arminianism. I disagree on some points with everyone I respect. Itook to reading Calvin, Sproul, Edwards, Grudem, Piper, et al. Tthe book recommend by someone on this thread, Is God to Blame? Is helping me shake off the residual effects of hyper-Calvinism, too. Breastmilk tested at 1 year postpartum is different than breastmilk at 6 months postpartum, etc. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. Some Calvinists will argue that being Non-Cal always means automatically being a universalist, denying the Scriptures, believing in a works-based salvation, or not believing in Gods sovereignty, etc. We do better together than we do on our own. So very reasonable. Please continue to dialog. Good post Dee (If Im allowed to comment on this one!). We can learn some from them, but much of what they proposed brought bondage to systems, pain, and even death to some earnestly seeking God. People, including you, got upset from Calvinists just stating their views. I have no problem with thatno one likes to be labeled. I found an interweb site a while back that had a downloadable version of Calvins Pentateuch (as I call it, by analogy rather than because it contains five of anything in particular). But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? We might refer instead to TULIP as a doctrinal stance. Believe me, Ive tried. Energy is really transferred from one thing to another. One section was exploring happiness. whats wrong with mess anyway? Calvinist believe in the total depravity of man while Arminians hold to an idea dubbed "partial depravity." Calvinism: Because of the Fall, man is totally depraved and dead in his sin. They have come into the world for such a time as this to rescue us Biblical goobers. which many people hold as dear as religion and political beliefs. Calvin's Commentaries on the Bible "After the reading of Scripture, which I strenuously inculcate, and more than any other "Eastview Christian Church pastor, Mike Baker, resigns after son, Caleb Baker, is fired from Central Christian Church for adultery" Why? They may, and most probably do, differ on other areas of theology but at least in soteriology, they do not hold to what is commonly known as the Doctrines of Grace or TULIP. It is very easy to proof text Calvin to prove any point you want to make about what he believed or didnt believe. This is fine too, and actually more pleasant for everyone. Plus I had never heard of tongues). Rather, I am encouraging those that may be suffering under a Calvinista doctrine that it is OK sometimes to say I dont know. Questions should be addressed to the male authority in ones life., 4) Christ died NOT for us, but to bring glory to the Father. Maybe it isnt. This is what has been preached to many people over and over. Mark Driscoll, John Piper and Tim Keller megachurch preachers and important evangelical authors are all Calvinist. At the end of the class, he was VERY sure where he stood- a non-Calvinist. My Aunt-in-law is one of the best living examples of Christ I know, I dont find her obsessed with doctrine, but she completely loves her neighbour. Can we not make allowance for Gods ways to be different from ours? In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). I have read extensively within the Calvinist system by approved authors including Calvin, himself, Grudem, Sproul, Piper, etc. Whatever part of the stream a Calvinist has adopted (and there are several streams), calling ones self a Calvinist means taking responsibility for the parts of the broader construct that are damaging. He exercises his power and sovereignty over all created things. He should be a great example to you. Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by bjonson, Jan 10, 2006. http://www.biblebelievers.net/Calvinism/kjcalvn1.htm, http://www.thebereancall.org/Search_Search.aspx?SectionID=1359&search=calvin, http://www.geocities.com/calvinismheresy/calvinismmain.html, http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/heresies_of_calvinism.htm, http://www.swrb.ab.ca/newslett/actualNLs/RHNarmin.htm. Recently, I had a Calvinist who knowns me say that i was not a Christian by very fact that I write this blog and call out some of the people that he admires. Oy. That has been my experience in dealing with Calvinists online, or lurking at their forums or blogs, yes. For example, we should never, ever turn our backs on child sex abuse because the pastor in the church where it happened is one of our good buddies. There are Cals who admonish other Cals to stop behaving this way, sometimes in their in-house squabbles such as, And really, in the end, if a doctrine about the majesty and greatness of God doesnt comfort traumatized people (among all the needy humans out there), then of what real use is it? I will not monopolize the conversation..I apologize for my run on posts. We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil. The theology is weak. Is proud of you. And as someone suggested, what is sometimes passed off as Calvinism is actually so-called hyper-Calvinism and my theological dictionary suggests its hard sometimes to tell the difference in some hyper-Calvinist writers. Ah, elastigirl, I have missed you and your wonderful thoughts. (But I always wondered why, if it was not His desire that any man should perish, that He also would create someone specifically for hell??). And those who have been left behind when theyve fallen in between, On the altar of the simple road is the blood of the messy gray It is nice to meet someone who remembers.If you dont mind me prying, where did you grow up? We have to balance very carefully allowing some women to blow off steam vs being vitriolic in their hatred of all things male. As a Catholic, I learned that if someone told me they were Christian, I accepted their word. But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? However, he presentedOlson as a man of good will. Jeff S, you said this: If you think I should be silent whenever I see Calvinism misrepresnted, then that isnt right.. Arguing these issues sends me down the crazy cycle of shame, pain, abandonment, God not hearing me, etc. Instead we have to accept that we don't understand their paradigm and choose to believe that they love God and believe that they are faithfully serving Him. Probably originated with Calvinists during the Reformation Wars or their descendants the Puritans; as an answer to the question Am I One of The Elect? Using Im Rich! Or reformed, predestined, predestination, sovereignty,. @ Junkster: Oy. I dont have experience of dealing with, or helping someone else deal with, child sex abuse; and of course I dont have experience of being someone else. I think a better question would be: Why should He want to stop me? If Calvinism sounds so much like Arminianism, why is there such a problem? You should consider it though it is a pretty long video. Why the pessimism? I myself am a man, and know all too well, the sins and short-comings of mankind. Behaviorallyyes, I would concede that Jeff S and Jeff B are NOT hyper. @ JeffB: My experience has been that someone who adheres to Calvinism always shows up on a blog to defend it/him when they happen upon someone they feel is misrepresenting him/it. You are not a Cavinista. I dont experience this extreme attitude from you at all. Even if they do end up with Pythonesque theology that embarrasses more thoughtful calvin sympathisers. Ive never spent much time self-identifying as a Calvinist. This really frustrates me a lot. Thanks for posting it. I, for one, *do* understand. Comments moving to the To Calvinist posts from this point. Those who fell outside the box and had to be pushed away But when I look at the attitude of evangelism presented in scripture, it seems a lot closer to how an Arminian would frame it: a call of hope to those who would repent and turn to God. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say. Im sure we will have our playful little jabs, and he doesnt mind dishing it. Questions should be addressed to the male authority in ones life. It is only required that we do not demean each other while in argument. God is not the only worker in the universe, however. The list consists of 89 members. The idea that we are mindless automatons going through Gods motions is not what Calvinists, now or historically, have ever believed. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. If they use their beliefs to beat people over the head, they are obviously jerks. Is not the whole batch totally leavened regardless of the amount of yeast? 14 William Lane Craig Sproul Ive learned much from him, though I dont always agree. Packer James Montgomery Boice James White John F. MacArthur John Piper Joshua Harris Loraine Boettner Albert Mohler R.C. I didn't quite understand the sin stuff. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that you dont want Calvinists to be completely honest about what they believe in the current discussion, because someone may be hurt. Agree. @ Daisy: The 10 Best Non Calvinist Systematic Theology of 2022 Before making a purchase decision, we strongly recommend reading through the features of each Non Calvinist Systematic Theology and picking one that will work best for you. So thankful to be free, now. Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. Granted, some assume Total Depravity to mean human beings to be totally depraved. ++++++++++++++++. They MUST insist you agree with themit is implied in the very protest to my assertion: You dont understand me; you cant understand me; thus, your only response is to AGREE that you could be wrong. The promises are over the top. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, "I believe" andcrossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. (My experience, from childhood on.). And no, I did not. [deleted] 6 yr. ago. But maybe there is just too much pain and hurt for that to be possible. But even more enigmatic is how man, being inexorably morally corrupt compared to God is never in a position to even KNOW the difference, since KNOWING good from evil implies that man can actually, of himself, wholly apart from God, freely embrace by his WILL the TRUTH of what is good, or reject it. Then I discovered I was not, and it was like a moment of deliverance from a mighty weight that had been pressing me down. I know there are some whose solution is that God limits Himself so that He is not all-knowing; I dont see this in Scripture. Purity of Ideology, Dee. Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be is the last thing we need. The seeds of justification by doctrine were sown a long time ago. This is simply human and not related to social faux pas. Many of us, view double predestination to be in great conflict with the character of God as He presents Himself in scripture. So, does God elect people who are only a little totally depraved as opposed to those who are totally totally depraved? Yes, some would slip away. Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. I think this is a bigger issue than Calvinism- its one fundamental to Christianity. I want to say here that I dont think that God takes pleasure in these events and I dont think that God forces people to sin, even in their thoughts. I think Heb. I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. New Calvinism is not a new branch of theology or a denomination. Buuuuuut the problem with this is that trying to pin a Calvinist down on what doctrines they actually believe is like trying to hold a wriggling cat using hands stuck in oven mitts (not that wed be putting the cat in the overgross, and, uh, cruel). Each Christmas, I am thankful that God works in mysterious ways. If, however, a viewpoint *in itself*, genuinely hurts someone, it is wrong. Oy. That is biblical. My humble opinionyet supported by scripture, is that the doctrines of unconditional election, limited atonement, and meticulous sovereignity (the last is not a pillar) villify and slander the name and character of Christ. How many blogs do you know that feature writers or pastorswho have significant differences in soteriology from the blog owners? No. People like RC Sproul understand that he can woo you all day long with heady notions of secondary causes because he understands that it will appeal to your false, but emotionally necessary urge for feeling loved and your sense of justice, without actually conceding his utterly deterministic assumptions. That means doing it even when the other person does not reciprocate. Declarations of faith. Hes what theologians call a simple Being. Not simple = not complex, but meaning that there is a Unity in whatever he does. 2) Dee, all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. Jeff as the saying goes: may all your tribes increase. Anyway, I am not talking doctrine here. Does it help that the Institutes that we have today began with a normal-sized book that Calvin added to over about a 24-year period, and was not the case of a mad obsessive locking himself in a room for a year or two? I could also pile up a lot of influential non-theologians here (C. S. Lewis, Billy Graham, Bill Bright), but I'm assuming your question was probing for a theological communicator of Packer's stature. This is as it should be, imo. That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life.. Athanasian nope, that seems tove been written by someone (probably not Athanasius, by all accounts) barking up entirely the wrong end of the stick. The person who said this will one day stand before God and have to explain why hepronouncedyou, a child of God who is now standing withthe throngs of heaven with a crown on your head, a non-Christian. After all, there are reasons lots of men and women have bought into it over the last few hundred years. German-American theologian and philosopher Paul Tillich is remembered for his work in the field of Christian existentialism and for concepts such as the method of correlation. And yes, theology would say that God permitting evil gives us a chance to to good, but thats a hollow thing to tell a rape victim. John Knox should be in the Reformation category (he lived in the early 1500s, not 1700). Maybe Im wrong on that. I think that desiring a nice complete and in itself non-contradictory theological system is our undoing. With fear and trembling I'll list Sren Kierkegaard. I have tried to track the historical development of the non-Calvinist position. I believe Sproul when he says that he knows of no Calvinist who, without any difficulty, welcomed what the Bible said about election, etc. Should the conversation be halted? Now I dont see either of those reflected in what I know of historic Calvinism (and both are directly addressed in the WCF), but if some people want to say they believe those things, then those people are in error for believing them because they are unbiblical, not because they are unCalvinistic. I think the way to achieve this is to leave Calvin/theology out entirely and instead actively love/listen/show compassion. It means that someone thinks someone else is presenting an incorrect opinion/idea and will present disagreement in as many ways as he/she can think will work. Considering the amount of people we are seeing who have had these experiences, I wish the accusations about misrepresenting the Reformed/Calvin/Tulip systems would take a back seat. Number 3 on the list is "use of the ESV Study Bible.". I went through what Calvinists themselves call the cage stage, meaning that young or new Calvinists belong in one. Calvins instituted Christian Religion is very much a place for the wise and learned, and hidden from little children. LL.B (Hons) London, CLP. Shares words of wisdom & advice with you. I hear the word "gospel" placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. You can even put your feet up I dont mind! There is too much work to be done. And honestly, whether they admit it or not, it appears to me most of the good Calvinist I know operate that way anyway. The WCF clearly states that God is not the author of sin. Bad theology dishonors God and hurts people. There is a reason there has been a debate for centuries. Those wishes are not uncommon. I dont want to speak out of turn here, but I wonder if the word calvinist should be banned, like the word bitter, due to the frequency with which it is taken out of context and/or the extent to which it means different things to different people. When RC said their are no rogue molecules in the universe, that implies to me that God directs even the smallest action, including the tongue. Here is my point as a non-theology major. It doesnt conform to our sense of fairness and love. Lets get this person through their crisis and love on them. CALVIN! What content does your faith have?. I dont have an answer, but I dont like the other alternatives either (that God doesnt exist, is not all powerful, or is evil). Otherwise, you get dismissed as a hayseed rube who is barely literate and not qualified to question Calvinism. He is married with two children. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. It buys you nothing in light of Gods absolute control. LOVE, this comment at a whole, Muff. I know this sounds like a broad brush, but I think people need to know this dirty little secret. Do you not understand non Calvinists read the scriptures with the intent of honestyseeing what it says instead of wanting it to conform to our beliefs yet reading the very same scriptures with due diligence, do not come to a believe (amongst other things)in double predestination. Once we agree that all ideas have the exact same chance of being wrongwe have merely held the door open for ANOTHER, and even more sinister and vicious, arbiter of truth to be released: the power of the keys, which is nothing more than the power of DESTRUCTIONand with this, the powers that be continue to be the powers that be. We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. Well see how well I execute on that. @ Darcyjo:I wish I could hear you preach. Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. I have come to understand that my experience in some great non-Calvinist churches is not the norm. There is something that has been horribly misinterpreted in the verse about All things work together for good..etc It has almost created a cult of catastrophe. Until these last five years, Ihad thought it possible for everyone to get along, even attend the same church. That they are the sole divine recipients of truth, again. To be honest most of the people who Ive bumped into that come across as dogmatic Calvinist are really regurgitating talking points. I think I would rather not go the route of trying to figure things out in that way; it leads to some very painful things. Calvinism stopped making sense to me when I was grieving the loss of my son last year. So help me now - these labels are mind boggling - if I see on a list somewhere that so and so is a Calvinist, or an Arminian, or Pelagist (and I know I messed that word up and every time I saw it I went back to my marine biology days and thought about deep ocean life as the words are similar so I would picture the man from Atlantis and get very sidetracked in whatever idea was being posted . Actually Ive always thought of the hyper crowd in any area as the ones who want to get in your face and tell everyone how if they are not with them they are against them. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. If theyre not slaughtering each other, theyre blowing up each others Mosques so to speak. I cant get there either on the basis of the argument (I have heard it all and tried)., I get where you are coming from within your paradigm. I also was not the only one who reacted to this. The fundamental non-negotiables of our faith, those that if not agreed upon prevent us from calling each other brothers or sisters are found in 4 ancient creeds. Thats why I wrote If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong.. Did you notice that I used the word "non-Calvinist" as opposed to Arminian? Now I have a place to send the Calvin debates and can keep the other threads relatively Calvin debate-free. ). God is NOT in control. A stupendously important point, Jeff. The rule about not eating the fruit was just as much an opportunity for Adam/Eve to choose good as it was to choose evil. Here are a few more (not necessarily Arminian but non-Calvnists): John Wycliffe, Vincent Taylor, John McClintock, Thomas Coke, C.S. There appears to be a loss of respect for those who are not Calvinist in their thinking. Understand that they think we are as illogical as we think they are illogical. I got a taste of this by spending a couple of years in Ed Young Jr.'s church. for what its worth, im the product of many generations of energetic, committed Christian people, several career missionaries to asia, and church since day 1. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? I.E. If you read it, you will most likely have a heart attack. Sois that what we are saying? The last point of Calvinism we'll be dealing with is the perseverance of the saints. He is a loving man in spite of the baloney flung his way. But are *we* the measure of truth? For my part, I honestly dont understand a need to defend Calvinism, or Luther, or the RCC, or Baptists, etc., etc. That's pretty darn impressive, and many many . 1) That article. Per PSA, I am pretty sure that that is the official stance of the Lutheran end of thingsbut I really shouldnt be talking about theories of the atonement because I havent studied them worth a hoot. Dee blast from the past! The simple interpretation of total depravity is this: because you are human (totally), you are perpetually and inexorably morally corrupt, and the only way you can understand any truth is if God functionally does it for you via the doctrine of arbitrary election. Something like that. In fact, I doubt any of the Cavlinistas would even agree with that thought process. But, within the week, I opened my Bible and read 1John1 and knew it was speaking about me. Why would the Bible portray God in such a way (that isnt true) just to make a point? Reformed theology teaches that God in His grace and mercy has chosen to redeem a people to Himself, delivering them from sin and death. I know it bothers you when you feel a belief is misrepresented. My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. However, they are limited, just as we are. This contradictory appeal to both mystery and sound orthodoxy allows then to move the doctrinal yardstick back and forth on any whim or fancy because all they have to do is remind us all that there isnt any real way we can ever know for sure, so we might as well simply agree with them so as not to cause an unpleasant ruckus and create division or risk hurting feelings or whatever other obstacle to real debate they can think up. Thanks for the recommendation. He is noted for a broad view of what constitutes Protestant "orthodoxy." Does not compute. Its more that the molecule is not outside of his authority. Per the God as author of evil thing, Ive only ever heard of one Calvinist who came close to saying this and it was Sproul Jr. I became a Christian at the age of 17, having been raised in Salem, Massachusetts, in what was essentially a non Christian home. This is a huge difference from the Calvinistas who dont. Hester, I am eagerly waiting for you to do your next blog post! Everything. A hearty AMEN numo. All the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, major liturgical Protestant groups like Lutheran and Anglican, and the Arminian/Methodist/Holiness line, which would include many Charismatics, Non-denominational, etc. Please, please, please, keep us posted on your son in law. How wonderful to remember those days! How is that? First list Randy Alcorn Thabiti Anyabwile Tom Ascol Voddie Baucham Joel Beeke Alistair Begg Jon Bloom Loraine Boettner James Pettigru Boyse John Calvin (of course) D.A. The accurate view of TD can be found in the chart that I linked to in my reply to dee. As well as giving off a strong aroma of the No True Scotsman fallacy. To breath it. Ill never forget a while back in our city when two young Christian college kids were killed, execution style, in a terrible, senseless crime. Notice the implicit point: only THEY really bring glory to God. Infused? Bummer. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot, @ Headless Unicorn Guy:YOu should see my Christmas tree. Groovy, man. I let the philosophers consider those questions. I ended up writing my final essay for my theology degree on the extent of the atonement. That was not the case with Pete Briscoe as pastor. What bothers me is that your leaders disregard my objections, calling me barely a Christian or saying that Olson is not a Christian.. Contemporary Famous Calvinists: D.A. Hopefully that will be winding down soon and Ill be able to get back on track this week or next. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar.